Episode 5 - The Phoenix

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In this FINAL episode, we close out Jon’s story the way any hero’s arc should end: with Jon having faced his Dark Night of the Soul, now ready to change. He’s always wanted safety, and controlled people to get that safety. In this last chapter, he finds a better way.

REMEMBER: Although the podcast is over, the podcast existed in the first place so tease the larger project we’re working on together: Jon’s book, which may or may not be called The Impossible Man. Be sure to subscribe at JohnnyBTruant.com so we can let you know when the book is finish!

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TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS:

NOTE: The transcript below was generated by AI and has not been edited. Accordingly, some things below are a little weird … but you’re smart, so I’m confident you can figure it out.

SPEAKER A

As they drained my control, it let out and made visible who I really was.

SPEAKER B

And who was that?

SPEAKER A

An absolute control freak. The worst they had ever seen in 60 years.

SPEAKER B

Welcome to The Impossible Man, the true story of how the inability to move allowed one person to tradehis humanity for ODS defying superpowers and how he clawed his way back. Hey, everybody, andwelcome to the final episode of The Impossible Man. The last episode was pretty rough, but that is parfor the course before the hero learns the lesson and ascends from the darkness. And that's ultimatelywhat we're going to be covering this episode. Remember, the entire arc for John was a journey, basicallyfrom the need for control, to trust and faith. And we're going to cover that in this episode. He needed tobe safe, and this is how he attempted to get it. So let's begin with this final episode of The ImpossibleMan. All right, so when we last left off, you were in a very dark place. We heard the story of this brutalrape and what it did to both hummingbird your girlfriend and to your relationship and then to you. Sothat's where we're starting this as we finish this overview of your story. So I assume that the relationshipfell apart and you broke up and you were this broken person. Is that where we began?

SPEAKER A

More or less. That's where. So even though she realized what she saw and experienced wasn't real, shestill remembered it and she still had the trauma from her not real experiences. She knew how illogical thatwas, but it doesn't matter. She experienced it. And that trauma caused her intense anxiety even to bearound me.

SPEAKER B

This is a little like if somebody wakes up from a bad dream and is mad at you because of something thathappened in the dream, but it didn't actually happen, but that they still feel that way for a while. And itsounds like even if intellectually, she understood. But she was having this emotional memory of youhunting down and killing the people that she loved.

SPEAKER A

Is that correct? Yeah. Her experiences where she saw me torture and kill people she had loved or to bemore accurate, to order them.

SPEAKER B

Tortured and killed, did she go to therapy around that?

SPEAKER A

Oh, yeah, lots and lots of therapy. And she knew by the end of it, she had reached a point to where shehad made clear dividing lines about what was real, what wasn't. But all of that trauma was still with her.And she told me, I love you with every molecule in my body, but if I stay with you, I feel like I'm nevergoing to heal and I need to move on. You need to move on. I'm going to move and try to restart mycareer. And if you love me, you will never come looking for me. Wow.

SPEAKER B

So throughout this story, you've been bulletproof and confident and sure that you could do anyimpossible thing that was put in front of you. How much of a hit did that take?

SPEAKER A

During this, it was the only time in my life that I couldn't get out of bed, that I didn't want to work. I didn'twant to see anyone. I wept all day, every day, for months. I was completely broken. And I started reachingout to a lot of girls, and even though I was a complete mess, not tried to date them, but just try to sleepwith them. And in the span of three months, I probably slept with twelve girls. One of them was a pornstar. I still had all of my old skills, except I now had no filter. I didn't do anything to harm any of thosegirls. I never lied to them. I told them I was not looking for a relationship. I was just looking for sex. And,guys, it'll shock you. There are a lot of women out there that are totally okay. What they want is you, to behonest about it. At the same time, it wasn't healthy at all. And eventually, a mutual friend of ours, DavidGonzalez, I was telling him about my life, and he just said, John, this isn't you, man.

SPEAKER B

I'm assuming that you had some degree of that control tendency that had loosened up a little bit whileyou were with hummingbird. Did it all come slamming back? Was there this almost vindicated feeling of,you know what? I was right all along. I shouldn't have relaxed my control. I should have tried to stay safe.

SPEAKER A

Sleeping with other girls was about control, because my objective was to sleep with them. And I'm notsaying this is good. I was in a dark time in my life. My objective was to sleep with them on the very firstdate. And so it was, how many girls can I sleep with on the very first date?

SPEAKER B

And you applied, I assume, all the same sort of impossible strategies that you've had all along, that sameforce of.

SPEAKER A

Will to my credit. Like I said, I was never dishonest. By the way, this is another secret to anyone, any kindof dating, to tell the other person exactly what you want. I would tell them on the very first day, this isexactly what I want. Are you down for that? And about third of the women said, no way, and that was theend of the date. The other two thirds of the women said, Maybe. Let's keep talking.

SPEAKER B

This is through, like, dating apps?

SPEAKER A

No, this is in person.

SPEAKER B

So you were still getting out because this was pandemic times, right? This was, like, 2021, something likethat?

SPEAKER A

It was right before it. So, yeah, I was attempting to feel some sort of control. By how many women could Iget to sleep with me over the span of a few hours while being completely, 100% honest. I would even tellthem about Comingbird. I wasn't hiding anything.

SPEAKER B

Well, so control was a strategy for you to feel safe. So did you feel safe at all?

SPEAKER A

No.

SPEAKER B

Even though you were controlling everything, did you just keep trying to ramp up the control in an effort tofeel that again?

SPEAKER A

Yeah, I think there was some of that. I was crucially unaware at the time, but I would say yes.

SPEAKER B

So David was the one who saw this. You were not going to see it on your own, is that correct? At least notat this time?

SPEAKER A

Yeah, he came to me. He knew about the breakup and everything that has happened with comingbird andhe knew I was messed up. But then he started to see all of this and he told me, rather than do what you'redoing, just, is it helping? And I said no. He said, well, would you be open to a different approach? And Isaid yes.

SPEAKER B

So you didn't resist? You didn't tell him he was crazy, that he didn't know what he was talking about, anyof that?

SPEAKER A

No. And it's because he was very close friend. He had already earned my trust. I knew he had my bestinterests at heart. And he said, there's a group, invitation only group of guys who are all very successful toget together and they talk about their problems. There are no therapists, it's just a group of guys. But it's areally cool group.

SPEAKER B

Was it that simple? Was it literally just a group of guys who just decided that they needed this supportnetwork?

SPEAKER A

What I learned when I went there is that there's a movement among some men that have realized thatmen have become emotionally stunted and that it causes all sorts of problems in our lives. And there aregroups around this. Like Lionheart is one of those groups. I never went to Lionheart, but this is very similarprocess. And the idea is that we've been through trauma, learned all the wrong lessons, and now we can'tseem to progress forward as men because we're no longer in control.

SPEAKER B

Trauma is so that idea of learning all the wrong lessons is something that we talked briefly about before.Can you give me an example of what that means, to go through trauma and learn all the wrong lessons?

SPEAKER A

Yeah. So after my stepfather, I learned if I'm not in charge, no one is safe. With hummingbird, I think thelesson I learned was, my life is over, it's time to die.

SPEAKER B

So you were learning that lesson subconsciously. And then when David came in, I assumed that therewas some degree of, well, this person sees it differently and I trust him and he cares about me. Was therethat kind of thing?

SPEAKER A

Yeah. And he was asking me to go hang out with some guys and he just said, try it and see what youthink.

SPEAKER B

And so I did what did you think?

SPEAKER A

I wept like a baby. Told them the story, and each man in the group just gave me a hug. They didn't sayanything. They didn't judge me. I did the same for them. And I noticed that I didn't feel alone. I still feltlike shit, but I didn't feel alone.

SPEAKER B

How long did you attend that group?

SPEAKER A

Over a year. Every week. I never missed a meeting.

SPEAKER B

How did that end? Did you just sort of get to the point where you were like, okay, I'm ready to move on?Thank you.

SPEAKER A

Eventually, the other members of the group started to move, and it just sort of dwindled. And by thatpoint, I'd already spent hundreds of hours, not 1000 hours, talking to these men. And I'd started tobecome much more in touch with my emotions. One of the exercises they gave beginning members wasto set a 15 minutes alarm on your watch that goes off every 15 minutes, then write down what you'refeeling when it goes off.

SPEAKER B

What did you discover through that process?

SPEAKER A

Initially, this is what most men discover. I knew I was feeling something, but I didn't know what to writedown, didn't know how to put it into words. And so I literally had to describe the sensations in my bodywithout understanding what those emotions were.

SPEAKER B

Did you begin to then learn to put name to them? I mean, was that the idea that you would all become alittle more aware?

SPEAKER A

Yeah, I took my descriptions. This is what I felt to these men, and they explained to me, oh, that's grief orthat's depression or that's whatever. And so I started to put names.

SPEAKER B

Was there any degree to which your earlier emotional research I'm thinking of the summer of 300 moviesbegan to jibe or gel or support this? Was there any concordance there that was.

SPEAKER A

Recognizing emotions in other people? With a slight bit of self awareness about my own. But during thisprocess, I learned a very nuanced view of precisely what it means to feel lots of different things.

SPEAKER B

How is your control equal safety thing working during this phase?

SPEAKER A

I let it go gradually. Took a while.

SPEAKER B

Allowing more and more cases where you weren't entirely in control?

SPEAKER A

Yeah, where I would just lose it in front of my friends.

SPEAKER B

How scary was that at the time.

SPEAKER A

When I lost control? Not very. But after, it was like, oh, my God, now everyone's going to leave me. And itdidn't happen. If anything, they felt closer to me.

SPEAKER B

So did it work a little like aversion therapy on that particular axis where you're exposed to a potential oran actual loss of control over and over again to the point where your brain says, maybe I'm still safe evenif I'm not in control?

SPEAKER A

There was some of that, yeah, for sure. And it was also what I said earlier about you cry until you've criedout all the tears. I cried out all the tears.

SPEAKER B

So it was putting in the time.

SPEAKER A

Yeah.

SPEAKER B

Interestingly. This process strikes me as very similar to what you used to do deliberately and consciouslywhen you wanted to learn to write headlines. You wrote hundreds of headlines and thousands ofheadlines, bulk action so that you wouldn't be ignorant. And it sounds to me like this is a very unwelcomebut cathartic or helpful version of that, where you just had to keep going into lack of control over and overagain and to learn that.

SPEAKER A

Yeah. I also started experimenting with visualization exercises and breathing exercises, and in particular,what worked well for me was doing both at the same time, so doing these sort of like you do in yoga,different sorts of rhythmic breaths and at the same time do visualizations. There's something about, forme, the rhythmic breath that very quickly results in a loss of control of my emotion.

SPEAKER B

Oh, a loss of control.

SPEAKER A

Yeah.

SPEAKER B

You were using the breath to I thought you were using the breath to feel control or to feel soothed, but it'sthe opposite.

SPEAKER A

There's something and it has to be physically illogical. When you breathe in certain ways, it's like yournervous system opens up and something releases. And doing that, I would just cry and breathe, cry andbreathe, cry and breathe and relive the memories over and over and over and over again.

SPEAKER B

So the breathing gave you the capacity to fully experience without resistance?

SPEAKER A

Yeah, it became a part of my schedule, like it was on my schedule 2 hours a day. I had therapy. Thattherapy is breathing, visualization. And I had a teacher for a while, eventually. I mean, learning how tobreathe is not that complicated. I didn't need that many classes, but I just started doing that every day forlike, 2 hours.

SPEAKER B

Did that strategy teach you that? It's taught you they didn't need to be in control, that you could feel safe.Was that the end of the journey, now that you knew how to not be in control, that you were able to moveon and nothing else was necessary?

SPEAKER A

I still didn't realize that it was about control. You could even say that exercise was a way of being incontrol of.

SPEAKER B

My trauma, basically, rather than surrendering to control, which is what it sounds like a little bit. You werelearning to master control. Control, yeah. Was that an epiphany? Was that something that was obvious toyou just after a year of exposure, or did somebody point it out?

SPEAKER A

It didn't was David. I told David one day, I feel like I've plateaued. I made all of this progress. I feel muchbetter, but I still feel my business isn't growing. I don't feel like I'm growing, and I don't know what'smissing. And he invited me into a very controversial type of therapy that he had been through himself andhad a great experience. And at this point, I trusted him so much, I would have said yes to anything.

SPEAKER B

Well, who knew that David Gonzalez was such a psychology guru? Did you know that about him?Because I don't have that kind of knowledge of therapy and psychology. That's two times that he'sbasically saving you. Did you know that going in?

SPEAKER A

I'm not the only person he's done that for. He's done that for a lot of people. And David has graduallybecome an expert on trauma of all kinds and all the different therapies hundreds of therapies does.

SPEAKER B

He study them like you do? I mean, I don't want to broach David's confidence, but it sounds like he's gotan encyclopedic knowledge.

SPEAKER A

I think so, yeah. And he's one of the wisest, most emotionally sensitive people on the planet that I've met.And he invited me into this and basically just said, go sign up for this. It lasts six months. It's $5,000.

SPEAKER B

So you trusted David, but where was your trust issues, your ability to trust other people before going intothis?

SPEAKER A

Just as bad as ever. The only reason why I trusted David is he had seen me and be with me at theabsolute bottom and never abandoned me or judge me. So I trusted him at the time probably more thananyone, a lot.

SPEAKER B

Did you see trust as a virtue that you would like to acquire? Or was it something that you trusted Davidand you didn't trust other people? And that's just how it was.

SPEAKER A

That's just how it was.

SPEAKER B

Because I'm guessing the secret here is that trust is a piece that was missing.

SPEAKER A

It was.

SPEAKER B

So tell me about the therapy then. I mean, as much as you can.

SPEAKER A

So this is a program called Ascension Leadership Academy, which is the next evolution of another verycontroversial program called Est that was shut down by the government, I think, after someonecommitted suicide. Not sure if that's quite right. I think it was something like that. I knew none of thatwhen I signed up. And the way it works is they give you experiences to trigger your trauma, and they areexperts at this. Those experiences, they have refined for over 60 years. They're as close to magic asanything I've ever seen, although there's nothing supernatural about them.

SPEAKER B

So I know that there are some things that you can't reveal, kind of, because it's a magician's secret sort ofa thing. But what can you tell us?

SPEAKER A

I can tell you some things that were exclusive to me. They required that I not go with my caregivers to anyof their meetings.

SPEAKER B

And let me interject for listeners. Having spent a bunch of time with you, I don't know that people get this,and I don't want to speak for you, so tell me if I'm wrong, but you have caregivers around twenty fourseven, and it's things like your eyes are watering and you need your eyes wiped or something. Itches oryou need water. I mean, it's constant, right?

SPEAKER A

Yeah.

SPEAKER B

And they wouldn't let you take anybody in with you, right. How long of a period of time are we talkingabout? It was this like an eight hour day and you did it for weeks on end?

SPEAKER A

Twelve hour days during the event. And then I was allowed to have my caregivers when I wasn't in anevent. But it was the first event. Three or four days?

SPEAKER B

I don't remember of twelve hour days.

SPEAKER A

Yeah.

SPEAKER B

What was your reaction when you learned this?

SPEAKER A

At first it was a hard note, and the owner of the company talked to me, or maybe it was one of theircoaches, and they said, listen, we want you to feel safe, but your caregivers are not going to be openingthemselves up emotionally about their trauma. And everyone else is in the room is, and it ruins the spacefor everyone. And it also makes other people wonder, can I really speak openly if there's this other personin the room who's not doing the same? And that made sense to me. And then they said, also, they can sitright outside the room. That can't be in the room with you. And your first weekend, David, the person Itrusted most in the world will be with you the whole time.

SPEAKER B

Was he going through it again or was he functioning as sort of a friend in the room?

SPEAKER A

As a friend, because he had been through it.

SPEAKER B

Now, you said the first weekend, so does that mean there were times when David wasn't there?

SPEAKER A

This is why I didn't know. I thought it was going to be the whole thing. It wasn't. They progressed this tonext. It was choose a buddy, David's, not here. Choose a buddy. And I chose a buddy, and they were withme for several days. The time after that, it was every day you choose a different buddy.

SPEAKER B

So this was subsequent weekends. Basically, there were breaks between these?

SPEAKER A

Yeah.

SPEAKER B

And did they know from the beginning that this was going to be a stepwise thing and maybe you wouldn'thave agreed and that they were tricking you to some degree?

SPEAKER A

I think so.

SPEAKER B

Do you think that the reason they gave you that caregivers couldn't be in the room? Was the entire truth?Or was it more that they knew that you had this control issue and were pulling in another trick?

SPEAKER A

I think they knew.

SPEAKER B

So how did that go? I know David, you've already said enough good things about David. I'm sure that wentfine when he was acting as your caregiver. But how did it go the first time that that wasn't the case?

SPEAKER A

Imagine that there's a person in a tank of water and the water is over their head and you can't see them,and they're interacting with you, telling you about themselves, but you can't see them. And then imaginethat slowly the water drains to where you can see them. As they drained my control, it let out and madevisible who I really was.

SPEAKER B

And who was that?

SPEAKER A

An absolute control freak. The worst they had ever seen in 60 years.

SPEAKER B

Is this the first time that you really confronted that?

SPEAKER A

Yeah.

SPEAKER B

So you had to learn to relinquish control. Did you have to learn to relinquish a promise of safety?

SPEAKER A

They promised me I would be safe, but it was very difficult for me to believe them. I called David multipletimes during the whole process. I was like, do you really trust these people? My caregivers werecompletely against it. My mother completely against it because it also has the appearance of someonebeing brainwashed, giving up control. It wasn't just control. I think there were other things they would beokay with. These are very peripheral things. They will not give you a schedule for the event. There is one,but you can't have it. You ask them when we're going to have a bathroom break, and they'll answer, whenit's time for a bathroom break.

SPEAKER B

Well, it occurs to me that they're safe and they're safe. So they may have been promising you that youwould be, like, physically safe, that you would leave intact and you'd be fine. But I'm also going to guessthat it did not feel psychologically safe on an instinct Amygdala sort of level.

SPEAKER A

No, physically, I was 100% safe the entire time. Emotionally, I became a complete mental case.

SPEAKER B

So did you learn that there were other ways to be safe, or did you have to kind of surrender to the factthat life isn't safe?

SPEAKER A

I had to surrender, and it took six months.

SPEAKER B

So just in the interest of moving the story forward and just a little teaser to everybody that there'sobviously a lot more here, fast forward through those six months. You've completed it, you've learnedsome lessons. What was the final leg of that journey so far?

SPEAKER A

Like? Eventually, I overcame my issues. I started to trust not as something that was earned, but as adefault. My starting position with everyone I came in contact with was, I trust you.

SPEAKER B

Really?

SPEAKER A

Yeah. That's where I am now.

SPEAKER B

And so to put a cap on it, you're in a new relationship. So tell me about that. After all of this trauma workand learning that safety isn't necessary at all times and that control certainly isn't necessary.

SPEAKER A

At all times, so I've relinquished control over just about every area of my life. And no, not to my therapistor to people who do have my best interest at heart. I released control to my leaders in my company, andmy company basically doubled. And I work half the hours or less, so I work less and make more purely asthe result of trusting other people. It sounds crazy. That's literally all it was. At one point, there was even aconversation toward the end of the program, one of the coaches asked me, are you in the habit of hiringidiots? And I said, well, no, of course not. I said, Then why don't you trust them to run your business?

SPEAKER B

What about your relationship, your new one?

SPEAKER A

The bridge to that was I gave up all of my safety in the US. I moved back to Mexico to build a new nursingteam again, giving up safety, trusting other people. Mexico is less safe than the US. Also, I met awonderful woman here. I asked her if I could say her name. She said, I can. It's Nicole. I'm not going tosay anything else, though. We fell in love, and I'm completely vulnerable with her. She's completelyvulnerable with me. It is the healthiest relationship I've ever had.

SPEAKER B

So as a closing note, you are, I believe, now, 41. Happy birthday.

SPEAKER A

Thank you.

SPEAKER B

And what are you going to do with your next 41 years now that you've learned this lesson, Mr. Impossible?

SPEAKER A

They say that none of us can heal completely from trauma. That could be true, but I'm going to challengeit and find out. The other thing. The most courageous act I can think of is not to do what I used to do andto say, I can endure anything, but I'll just turn off. You can endure any amount of pain if you're numb. Now,I still have to put my hands on the flame. I still have to endure the pain. I still have to go through thingsother people can't imagine, and I'll try things that other people have never done before. What I'm doingnow? Moving to another country to build a nursing team to take care of me, to then travel all over theworld. Don't know of anyone who's ever done that before. So I'm doing all of those things, but I'm doing itwith my full self, with my emotions turned on, all the way on. All right, everybody.

SPEAKER B

So that was the last episode in the Impossible Man podcast series. As I've mentioned, this is an overview.It was just meant to give you sort of a high level view of what there is in this story. And as we go deeperand deeper, as we're writing the book together, the story just gets more and more nuanced. This is one ofthose cases where truth is stranger than fiction. Truth is more compelling, let's say, than fiction. So nowthat the podcast is over, it is not the end of the journey. Remember, the whole point was that John and Iare writing this book together. Now, I don't know if it'll be called The Impossible Man or if we will call itsomething else. So just know that there will be progress updates over time. I have no idea how long it willtake. That depends a lot on John and what he wants to do with the book and the best way, probably to keep in touch and to keep tabs on this entire thing is to go ahead and subscribe to either John's list or to my website, Johnnybtruant.com, and that has the h in Johnny. And I will keep you up to date on this. If youwant to subscribe, remember, as always, that you can find John on Twitter at johnmarrow Jonmorrow, andyou can always contact him at Support@smartblogger.com as well. And any email sent to that addresswill be forwarded to him. So I want to thank you so much for being here for this series. It's been very, veryinteresting to record and the reception, although it has been small, has been quite enthusiastic. And sothank you to all of you out there who have been following along. We will see you when we see you, anduntil then, thank thank you for listening to The Impossible Man.